Episode 11: Faster payments, now!

Transcript of the recording

Cyrielle Chiron:
Over the last couple of years, and most recently as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic, the topic of how consumers and businesses expect to pay and get paid, have been headline story around the world. Here in Canada, since the pandemic started, our study found that 60% of Canadians are using less cash, and 40 to avoid shopping at places that don't accept contactless payments at all. With the decline in traditional payments methods, including cash being eclipsed at an accelerated pace, what does this mean for the payments landscape? And how is the payments industry responding, and what will it take to keep up with the increased demand for more convenient, faster and secure payments options? I'm Cyrielle Chiron, your host for season two of The PayPod, which talks about all aspects of Canada's ambitious payments modernization mission, and explores the topics that influence payments in Canada and around the world.

I'm actually excited today to lead the conversation on changing face of payments. As a head of research of Payments Canada, I have the opportunity to see first, and right away, the data behind the accelerated growth in payments choice and adoption. On the outside of this door, working at Payments Canada, I also have the opportunity to be playing a role in Canada's payments modernization effort. The key part of this initiative is the introduction of a new real-time payment system, which is the first of its kind in Canada. This system will be an always available system that move funds between the sender and receiver's banks within 60 seconds at any time. With this capability, Canadians can expect a platform that will enable the introduction of innovations, which is something we know consumers and businesses want, but also expect. Joining me today is Brad Pragnell, principal at 35 South, 45 North, a consultant working with Payments Canada on its payments modernization programs.

For nearly 25 years, Brad has worked within the financial services industry, providing leadership and delivering meaningful outcomes for member organizations, stakeholders, and regulators. He's had executive level roles within CP Australia, the Association of Superannuation Funds of Australia, the Australian Payments Clearing Association, now called AusPayNet, and of course, Payments Canada, where he has been consulting on our payments modernization program. Brad is today representing his own view on this podcast, he's not speaking on behalf of any of his clients.

Also joining us today is Lance Homer, global head of strategy for electronic payments at Equinix. With almost 12 years of experience at Equinix alone, Lance directs a global business development team which focuses on strategic next horizons opportunities in digital payments and retail banking ecosystem. His in-depth knowledge across the payments and FinTech landscape as made him a highly effective paymentologist that he is known today. Thank you both for joining me today on The PayPod.

Brad Pragnell:
Thanks Cyri.

Lance Homer:
Yep. Thank you very much for having us today.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Well, I'm really happy to speak about these things with the two of you today. You can't be in payments and not talk about real-time payments. I think this is one of the most topical subject these days. Before we go deep into it, as mentioned upfront in my intro, we know that Canadians are in the driver's seat when it comes to changing the face of payments, and their needs and expectations are changing at a rapid pace. What are your observation on this topic? And the key question would be, is the global trend?

Brad Pragnell:
Yeah, thanks Cyri. Look, I think what we're seeing, and particularly in the COVID-19 environment, is it's accelerating the trends towards rising use of digital payments, Tronic payments, and declining use of checks and cash. So these are pretty common trends we're seeing globally, and definitely the COVID-19 situation is accelerating them. Canadians have also proven to be very good at adopting new ways of paying. I think the Canadian uptake of contactless payments in recent years has been quite impressive by global standards. So definitely we're adaptable, Canadians are adaptable. And yeah, more change ahead for sure.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Great. Do you see any other trends for you on your side Lance?

Lance Homer:
Well, it's a great question. And, I think, being your neighbor to the South here in the US, I look at it a lot of the things that Canada is doing in payments that they're ahead of us. So yes, both countries, we still have paper checks, we still get paper receipts, but the US, we've barely started using chip. I don't have any contactless cards, nor do most Americans.

Cyrielle Chiron:
It's coming, it's coming.

Lance Homer:
It's coming, it's coming. But we're talking about the speed and pace of innovation. I bring this up because, yes, things are accelerating, but there are still massive opportunities for new innovations to happen in this space. And I think we'll see that with real-time payments and as well as where payments become more embedded into new business models in innovative ways.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Yeah. Great point. Like definitely opportunities for innovation. Do you see the same trends for consumer and businesses overall, or do you see one segment growing faster than other?

Brad Pragnell:
Look, I think one of the things that we're noticing in terms of the segments is, and when we start to look at faster payment systems, is that originally they were thought of in terms of the P2P, the personal payment use cases. But I think increasingly what we're seeing is people exploring how can be used in other contexts, government payments or business payments. So I think that as these changes come about, I think there's going to be a greater exploration of where else, and where are those opportunities, and where are the gaps that these innovations can close? So I think that's really what we want to keep a close eye on. And I think, again, the current COVID situation is catalyzing industry segments as much as payment service providers to think a bit about how they deliver services, how they deliver goods, and how they accept payments and manage data. Definitely.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Yeah, definitely. The situation really accelerated the need to think about innovation. So I agree with that. I'd like to stay with you, Brad, you played a role in mapping out Canada's payments modernization roadmap, following our consultation work that resulted in the publication of our vision for Canadian payments ecosystem. And for those who wants to access it, to learn more about it or refresh their memories, this paper is available on our website. Part of payments Canada's modernization initiative includes the introduction of a new real-time payment system. As the two of you mentioned about real-time payments, kind of the things we're seeing. What role will the system play in helping to respond to the demand for faster and more convenience payments options?

Brad Pragnell:
Yeah. Look, a great question, Cyri, and I think the Real-Time Rail initiative that Payments Canada is pushing ahead on, and the how it was addressed earlier on in the vision and the roadmap, was really about addressing a number of specific needs that needed to be closed. Really, not just around speed, and obviously speed is almost a given now, but also around things like data. So the importance of ISO 20022 and the importance of richer data, I think that's really about an important part of what a new system like the RTR is going to address. Is really on that increasing demand for things like data uncertainty.

I think that's where we're definitely going to see things eventuate in terms of this new system. And I think Canada is, this is part of a global trend. We have many of these systems have now been deployed, or are being deployed. And I think we're going to get to a point where a real-time payment system is just part of that suite of offerings that are available as part of the payment systems. I think it's becoming less of a nice to have, and it's increasingly becoming more of a must have for any of these systems.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Yeah, a must have. Actually, it's a good point. So you've been working a lot, I know, on different initiatives globally, dedicated to real-time payments. How many countries today have live real-time payment system, and what can we learn from them? Has any use case from these countries that demonstrate the benefit that Canadians can expect from the real-time system?

Brad Pragnell:
Yeah. Look, I mean, we've gotten many, many systems now. I can't remember, Lance, I think probably about 70 or 80 now? I think at latest count. Is that about right?

Lance Homer:
Well, from the 2019 FIS, Flavors of Fast report, they are accounting 54. But I'm sure it's a bit since then. It's grown. So it's probably the magnitude of 60 to 70.

Cyrielle Chiron:
So quite a lot. Right?

Brad Pragnell:
Yeah. So we're definitely getting up into a significant number of deployments now. What we're seeing is that we're seeing some commonality in some of the design choices that are being made. We're seeing ISO 20022 increasingly being the messaging standard that's being used. A real focus on single credit transfers is the main way of delivering this. Thinking hard about access, thinking hard about the use of APIs. Thinking about what features can be developed and deliver that can add the most amount of value to the ecosystem. I mean, those are the kinds of things we're seeing in those deployments, in those design choices. But yeah, it's surprising. You go back 10 years ago and it was a little bit of a, well, that's just kind of this strange thing that they're doing in Australia and the UK, and now it's become this global phenomenon. So it's quite exciting to see it. I think the best is yet to come in terms of what these systems are going to be delivering.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Yeah. I agree. Lance, is there any other ideas, like use case you could add to that from your experience?

Lance Homer:
Yeah, so Equinix, for those who don't know who Equinix is, we're a co-location company, we operate data centers all around the world. And we actually operate data centers in about 15 markets where real-time payments is live in those countries. We actually have seven national payment systems operators that co-locate in our facility. So we actually get a view into the building of these systems and get to work with some of the market, core market providers in these countries.

What we've seen is, as these national payment system operators decide to build a new Real-Time Rail, that the component of building an ecosystem around it has become increasingly important to drive innovation. And as Brad mentioned, it'll be commonplace and expect that the payments move quickly. But really where I see things headed is around the use of data, and overlay data being the driving trend. And that won't come from the national payment system operator directly, it will come from all the FinTechs that are built around it. So the ability to connect and have a broad ecosystem is going to be critically important for each of these countries.

Brad Pragnell:
Sorry, I'm just going to add something there, Cyri, on what Lance was saying. And I think that's what we're seeing in these designs is that definitely this embrace of a layered approach so that there's basic conductivity at the infrastructural layer, but realizing that further up the stack you need to provide opportunities for participants, FinTechs, and others, to be able to innovate on top of that. So in a sense here, a good, a well-designed real-time payment system is effectively a toolkit. it's a basic set of rails that will allow others to meet those use cases. So you don't know what those use cases are right now, you have an idea of them, but you're hoping that you can enable and foster others to be able to meet those in the future. I think that's really part of what the design is about now, and just getting that ecosystem the way that Lance was talking about earlier.

Lance Homer:
I've had a chance to look at the vision roadmap for Canada's real-time payment system. And they've done a great job of not just trying to drive innovation and build out an ecosystem in their market, but prepare them to be able to be competitive internationally also. What I think what we'll see here going forward is that these real-time payment systems, as they start to align on the same ISO 20022 standard to interconnect, and it'll be easier to move money between countries. You think about still the challenges of moving money internationally. I think these Real-Time Rails are going to make it much easier to do that between countries once everyone's on the same standard. And then you think again about the ecosystems and services that around them. Canada is well positioned to be competitive on the global stage going forward with this.

Cyrielle Chiron:
That's incredible, we like to hear that we are well positioned to compete globally. I think it's good. But there's a lot of work that has been done across some times. It's pretty good to hear that we are in the right track. I'd like to, there's a couple of things that we were talking about here. We're talking about having other players in there, and talking about infrastructures. I'd like to go back to payments innovation in thinking about this infrastructure. And I'd like to have your view, Lance, on what type of payments innovation, whether it's infrastructure or other type of things, are needed to keep pace with changing demands and all the things that we've been talking about.

Lance Homer:
Sure. You can't talk about infrastructure without talking about cloud. And cloud certainly has sped up the development of applications. But what you often see is that doesn't necessarily solve the speed of interconnecting the digital supply chain. And Brad talked about connecting in these different parts of the ecosystem, that plumbing. APIs make it easy for the applications to connect, but the payment world relies on private networks between participants, both for security, speed and reliability. And what we're seeing that from an infrastructure perspective at Equinix is, the deployment of payment hubs by banks and by FinTechs in our facilities. These payment hubs are just the infrastructure that they need to connect to the rails and their customers and partners and cloud providers so that they're part of an ecosystem.

And then they're able to plug and play with their partners and solve that long pole and a 10 of which is the interconnection to the digital supply chain. And so this becomes a blueprint that if you want to deploy in Canada, you've got a blueprint with a payment hub there. But then if you go into a market that has some difficult data sovereignty requirements, like a Jakarta, Indonesia, it's the same blueprint that you can use. So we're seeing a drive to not just deploy code quickly, but figuring out how you can connect your digital supply chain quickly via ecosystems.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Well, that's a good point. How do you do that when you were internationally, how do you connect on those different countries?

Lance Homer:
We're seeing companies deploy their wide area networking in key markets. Typically these are markets that are cloud rich, where there's ecosystems forming around AWS, Azure, Google, IBM and Oracle. They build a backbone network. Sometimes it's from a common carrier, but sometimes they're using a software defined networks that just Equinix provides with our, what we call, Equinix Cloud Exchange Fabric. But that allows them to quickly add new markets in the key places where they're going to do business and go global quickly.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Great. So we talk about speed, but we also say that it's real-time, but it's not only about speed. It's about the data that we have, the transparency, the connectivity with other players to make it as a tool kit. And providing better options, I would say, for consumers and businesses. But it's really hard to cover the topic of modern payments and all the thing we talked about without addressing fraud. Right? Insecurity. Some may say that, when you have a very innovative type of payments, it's faster. Well, on the other side, fraud also is faster and more innovative. And even sometimes fraud is ahead of on the distributions that we have. So what is your perspective on this topic? And what role does it play as we see an increase in introduction of more electronic payments choices, and a lot of innovations?

Brad Pragnell:
Look, fraud is a very important topical issue. I think most of us, we've identified most in the payment space, have identify that with COVID-19 there's been a bit of an uptake in terms of fraudsters taking advantage of people's isolation and use of technology to promote scams and so forth. I mean, I think in terms of the real-time systems, I think it means a little bit of a rethinking of some of the old ways in which we've dealt with fraud. I mean, I think as a whole the industry and the participants have done an amazing job in terms of managing fraud over the years and decades. I think it just means a little bit about rethinking some of the paradigms that we've used.

Brad Pragnell:
We don't have the luxury of sitting on a transaction in the middle and doing an investigation on it or holding it. It really does push the work further out to the edges so that before a participant initiates or sends a payment through the system, that they've done all the checks that they need to do. So it does push some of the responsibilities further out, but again, you can do stuff in the middle as well, too.

I think it's really just about thinking about how do we reconfigure some of the really good things that we've done over the years to deal with things such as ACH related fraud, credit card related fraud, all of that, reconfiguring some of those paradigms and methodologies and thinking about how we apply it to real-time. I think that's the challenge for us as an industry, but I think we've proven over the many, many years that we're more than up to meeting that challenge.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Yeah, totally. Is there anything that you will see from your side, Lance, from technology infrastructure?

Lance Homer:
This is a great question. And I actually really liked some of the language that Brad used there about pushing us out to the edge. It certainly means being able to have infrastructure that can look at data in real-time and not just the luxury of having a batch process and having time to investigate. And so you need to look at large amounts of data using networks and infrastructure that can handle that in real-time. Now the goodness is the generally speaking real-time payments, they're seen as quite secure because they're push payments rather than pull payments. We're not giving out the payment credentials or the checking accounts to a business to withdraw or pull funds from your account.

That minimizes the risk that consumers have of data, like a retailer is breached by a hacker. There won't be the consumer's payments, credentials to steal. But unfortunately, as you mentioned Cyri, you can put locks on the doors but the thieves are going to find a way to come in through the window. They're just going to try different attack vectors. Brad talked about some of the things that you were seeing in COVID-19 with people being isolated at home. So phishing schemes are on the rise. People posing as utility companies trying to provide fraudulent counts to push your electric bills and to. So in the grand scheme of things though, Cyri, I'm competent that the banks and marketing structure predators for real-time payments, they'll be able to tamp down on any fraud before it hurts the integrity of the overall system.

Cyrielle Chiron:
I'd like to go back into what you were saying to push and pull, and the fact that you don't necessarily give your credentials, like request to pay and things like that. I think it would be good to explain your view on how this can actually help in term of fraud.

Brad Pragnell:
Oh yeah. Look, I mean, I think Lance touched on that. And the fact that these systems are built around a credit push rather than debit pull, means that the credentials are not necessarily sitting, for instance, with the merchant. And what we're seeing is that ways in which real-time systems are trying to create more seamless and debit-like experiences that don't necessarily require you as a consumer to hand over valuable information to that merchant. So yes, request to pay is one way in which the merchant, through through their FI who may be participating in a scheme, will be sending through a request that I receive. And then I, as a consumer, can accept or reject. And then by accepting that, that triggers a credit transfer going back.

We are also seeing further elaborations on that. One thing that we're seeing here in Australia is that the new payments platform have announced what they're calling a mandated payment service. So effectively it's a vault, a central vault, that holds consents. So that means that me as a consumer would be able to provide consents that then would allow for recurring payments to happen through the real-time system. So we are really seeing some very interesting innovations happening within these systems. And I think a lot of those are trying to address those kind of use cases around things like recurring payments or bill payments, but to avoid some of the challenges where your credentials or your information would be held by a merchant or a biller. Giving people more control, giving people more security, and ensuring they're efficient is all about pretty important.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Yeah, totally. I'd like to go back into talking about all the other players that happen in the industry. Lance, you were talking about this whole ecosystem and connecting with everyone. And want to talk about those new entrants in the payments industry, because we've seen a lot of innovations and a lot of different players that come with different offers. So what roles are new entrants to the payments industry? So the different pay techs or different vendors, what roles are they playing in shaping the payments landscape? Really, when we talk about all these changing demands, it could be with COVID-19 or overall.

Lance Homer:
The new entrants, they are driving innovation. Absolutely. And that's a good thing. And so the more of them, the more innovation will occur in the marketplace, both by them and by the incumbents in the marketplace. If you think about the payments ecosystems, there's a bunch of sub ecosystems, there's the credit and debit ecosystem with VISA and MasterCard at the center. Or there is the ACHRDP ecosystems with national payment operators, like a Payments Canada or cross borders, like Switch at the Middle. These are historically have been companies that have not been huge competitive threats for the areas that they're in. And slow to innovate. The companies that connect to these central operators are the banks. Again, not a lot of competition in the market space, and slow to innovate. And then you've had these 800 pound gorillas of service providers that are around the banks providing them services, and they've been slow to innovate.

All of a sudden cloud comes along and allows the barriers to entry for a company to come, and a new entrant. It can be just two or three DevOps people that will invent some new application that drives innovation in the marketplace, that's creating competition for the 800 pound gorillas. The horn of the unicorn is waking up these 800 pound gorillas, and they're becoming more innovative. And then you've got the 800 pound gorillas and these FinTechs creating ways that the banks are seeing competition with digital only banks, or moving banking as a service into the enterprise, whether it's issuing as a service or acquiring as a service. And then the competition from these new entrants, you have open banking that is disrupting the rails as we know them.

And that's creating competition from companies, like Plaid, in the market space that that VISA acquired. So you've got VISA, MasterCard, Swift, Payments Canada, they're facing competition from things that weren't rails with central markets in them. So I think it's good for any country that's trying to create innovation, to broaden the ability for new participants to enter, because it drives innovation and competition in the marketplace.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Yeah, totally. And Brad, what challenges do you see from that happening for if you are like anyone for any players, new entrants, a traditional institutions or regulators? Do you see anything that is challenging to evolve in that context?

Brad Pragnell:
Having been involved in a few of these real-time payment deployments is that it's having to relearn what we think we know. So I think it's for banks, it's for FinTechs, payment service providers, regulators, users. And realizing that what we're talking about with these new systems combines features of things that you've seen with card schemes, but also things that you've seen with, ACH, EFT type transfers. It fuses them together, but it's neither one of them. So I think the big challenge is just getting your head around the new paradigm. And I think the other challenge is really around thinking about it as being more than just fast. Right? Is thinking about, well, what about the certainty? What about the data? What about all of these other features that these systems bring, and how do you take advantage of these? Because it does things that other systems don't necessarily do. Right? And I think that's really the business challenge for anyone involved in this space.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Yeah. And I think that's a good point, because a lot of people would say, well, why do we need this new payment system? We already have payment system that are working today. And the fact that you're saying it's not only fast, it's also more secure, and it's more innovative and give you competition. I think it's a good argument. We talk about, you said, getting ready for changing what you already know, and adapt. And we talk about new different types of payments meta that are there, and the different industry that is responding to. But Brad, from your perspective, is there anything consumer or businesses, or maybe regulator, needs to start now to maximize the benefits of the opportunity of new payments option and real-time payments?

Brad Pragnell:
Well, look, I think one of the things, particularly for businesses to think about, is about taking advantage of ISO 20022 and the additional data capabilities that presents. So the data piece is really important in that, but it only really works when businesses are working with their financial institutions to really map out how this can be deployed in a way that's beneficial for all parties and creates those efficiencies. Being involved in those discussions, in those conversations, I think, from a business perspective are really important. I mean, where are we've seen some really interesting changes is where business verticals or industries have come together and have worked around things like the data standards that they use. And think about how that can be leveraged into new real-time systems. So I think a lot of it is thinking about the data piece. I think a lot of it is thinking about working within your industry and working with your financial institutions to take advantage of that capability. I think that's really what that's about.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Yeah, no, I agree. And Lance, do you see anything from an infrastructure point of view? Is there anything consumer businesses, anyone, needs to start to do now?

Lance Homer:
From an ex-infrastructure point of view, I think Brad talked a lot about ISO 20022. Now that's primarily at the software layer. But if you don't have the infrastructure that gives you the capability to take advantage of the data, like Brad mentioned, and create new values, you're not getting the full advantage of what the possibility of real-time payments gives you. I think Brad brought up a great example of what's going on in Australia with the NPP, there, their realtime payment system, and creating a consent management system. If you're a bank that's going to be operating in a real-time payments environment, thinking about ways that you can help protect your consumers from fraud, help them have better control over who has access to their payment instructions and things like that, will be key. And these are the things that they should be doing now before the Real-Time Rail rolls out in finality.

Cyrielle Chiron:
I just like, as a final question. If you could see into the future, let's just imagine you can. What payments change do you think will be next leading trend? Like it would be in the next leading trend that will be fast, convenient and secure. Do you think it would remain the top three things? Or do you think other criteria, other drivers will be the new way?

Brad Pragnell:
I'm happy to have a first go at that, Cyri. Look, I think what we're going to see is, I think what we expect in terms of convenience, I think fast is going to be a given. I don't think we're even going to be talking about fast in a couple of years. It's just, it is table stakes. And to a certain degree, same with secure. No one's going to want to use a payment system that doesn't have the highest levels of security, and appropriately manages fraud and other risks for end users. I think that what's really going to be exciting is around convenience and is around taking advantage of the capabilities that these new systems provide to really work into this world of smart payments, so that payments effectively disappear. That they just become a seamless part of the transaction.

And that's what consumers want. I think we've seen that through the deployment of things like Uber over the past couple years. People want a simple, seamless experience. And I think as we evolve, I think it's going to get to a point where you don't even see the payments anymore. It just happens in the background. So I think that's going to be exciting. And especially when you start to line that up with things like geolocation and biometrics and a few other things, and you could see some very, very... Obviously clearly with people's consent. Some really interesting things happening where I think it delivers amazing value for people. And I think that's really the exciting thing that I'm looking forward to.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Yeah, I agree. I keep saying that when the experience of buying something and so I'm happy getting my product, and I'm not saying, yeah, no, I'm going to pay for it, right? If I can completely remove that part of it, it's not going to make my buying experience any less relevant. I think it's going to make it even better. But what about you, Lance? What do you think would be the next thing in the future? If it's still going to be around going be the same top three drivers that we think about today, fast, convenient and secure, or it's going to be something else?

Lance Homer:
Sure. Great question. But before I answer it, Cyri, thank you for having me on the podcast. And Brad, I've enjoyed all of your answers here, although you stole a lot of the thunder of what I wanted to say about the future. Because I agree completely with you in many ways, but I'll just give you you my framing of it. Look, the movement of money is becoming commoditized. There's just so many tools out there and it's becoming easier. Payments are going to be fast enough, it doesn't need to get any more faster than it's going to be in a few years. Table stakes for security. You can't operate in this environment without security, so then it comes down to convenience. And when it comes to convenience, I would phrase that in terms of contextual commerce, but agree completely with what both of you said. Brad, you brought in the use of geolocation or biometrics, adding that to the transaction to create new value for the end consumer.

That, to me, is where businesses that are in the payment space right now should be trying to figure out, how can I get into that space? Because at the end of the day, we can only extract so much value out of moving the money, transacting it. And that pie, more and more people are moving to digital transactions. But that pie, at some point, it's just going to stop growing. You've got to figure out how to create new value. And to me, it's around contextual commerce.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Yeah, no, I agree. And I think I am looking forward to see how we make this cross border, right? And how domestically it's the first start, but how can we go and move around money internationally very fast? And I'm the same as you, Brad. Living in two countries, I just send money all the time and I'm like, can we make this easier? And then faster.

Brad Pragnell:
Yeah, I agree. Everyday, Cyri.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Yeah. I know.

Brad Pragnell:
Living the dream.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Living the dream. Well, thank you so much for the two of you to joining us today in that discussion. I think it was great. Thank you for your time.

Lance Homer:
Absolutely. Thank you.

Brad Pragnell:
Thank you very much, Cyri. And thank you, Lance, that was a great discussion.

Cyrielle Chiron:
Around the world we've seen a transformation of the payments landscape. Faster, more convenient and secure payments methods are in high demand. And we've seen this especially pronounced during the COVID-19 pandemic. As the pace of change evolves, how does the payments industry response with the introduction of new ways to pay and get paid? I'd like to once again thanks both Brad Pragnell and Lance Homer for speaking with us today on this interesting topic. As always, the PayPod is available for download on your favorite podcast app or payments.ca. Join the conversation online using #modernpayments. And stay tuned as we continue to explore the changing world of payments. Thank you again, and see you next time.